pmooney.net

1 - Nicely stated, Paul... Things are never black and white. Being comfortable with various shades of grey is necessary to survive and get along.

I can see and understand the points being thrown about in the Lotus blogsphere these last two days, but we can *really* do without the personal attacks. Yes, there are major histories with some of the parties involved, but the rest of us may not care or don't care to see the skidmarks...

Thanks for summarizing many of my thoughts better than I could.

2 - My hair is still that colour.

"IBM agreed to sponsor ILUG2008."

When?

I would submit that promoting and criticizing products are only good things depending on whether the products themselves are good or bad, respectively.

3 - Nathan - the answer to IBM sponsoring ILUG is a bit complicated. As for when, they agreed to sponsor the same day as Volker posted a query as to why their Logo was not on the site. Volker did not know that.

As for your other point, its a fair one, but I dont know any product that I just like, and dont have something to criticize in it. I really like Lotus Notes, but there are parts that drive me mad!!

4 - Can I echo Tom and say well said Paul!
Coming from the part of this world I have a bit of an aversion to name-calling, even if we are rather good at it.

PS .. Paul the fun will come, it is prob being lost at the minute in the relative "biggness" of what ILUG08 is becoming. The ILUG organizing team's efforts go a long long way to making it a high point of the attendee's "lotus" year. So for me at least all your hard work is REALLY WORTH IT!

If you are coming up north anytime soon give me a buzz and we can go out for a half'un or two. I might even introduce you to road bowling if u are up for it.. nothing like throwing a canon ball around for an afternoon to make the world seem a less busy place.

Steve

5 - I don't believe that you dont like being told what to do. I've told you what to drink TONS of times, and you've done it gladly

Nice Post. Very cool.

-Grey

6 - Well said, but you know this just drags it out longer.
As they said on the sopranos, fuggehdabouddit!

7 - Usually would agree Keith, but felt like I needed to say something, and this will be (hopefully) my only post on this

8 - Great post!

As the not-so-great Rodney King said,
Can't we all just get along?

As the great Stan Lee said,
'Nuff said!

9 - "I dont know any product that I just like, and dont have something to criticize in it."

Trillian. It does one thing, it does it simply, it does it cheaply and it does it reliably. For me at least.

10 - "We are all ASW's"

love that line .. just wish more people would accept it

11 - If you want me to sort out any troublemakers just say the word mate

12 - Oh dear. I did not imagine it was so bad. Let me say just one thing:

If you think that you owe anybody, you are dead wrong.

13 - It wouldn't be a good meaningless argument however, if I didn't weigh in.

Like yourself, Andrew does a great summary of (most of) the situation:

{ Link }

14 - Paul, there you have it then...please feel free to tell both Volker and me to eff off then...

Volker, it was "this bad" because one of the ILUG sponsors, whose paperwork was not yet complete, complained to ILUG that another ILUG sponsor was attacking said sponsor in public for having slow paperwork. The first time it was mildly amusing, the second time it was downright offensive and accomplished nothing but to make you look petty.

As it happened, in my mail the very same morning - before your post showed up - was the note saying our budget for ILUG sponsorship had been approved. Kristin Keene worked very hard to make this happen and did not expect, nor need, to be subject to public ridicule. You can shoot all you want at how IBM claims to help businesses be more responsive, but the procurement process isn't usually an area we focus on as a place for competitive advantage. RIM (who you compared IBM to) may have an easier process for a smaller amount of money than IBM does for the amount of money (and people) it is committing to ILUG.

I am not sure whether Paul brought this up to you offline or not. I think the tactical error was having ILUG not put the IBM logo up as a sponsor as a matter of course...given the number of speakers and extreme likelihood that IBM would in fact come up with some cash for the event. If you, Volker, could see us all as having the same objective -- a successful ILUG -- that would be really helpful. At the time of your post, at least three IBMers felt like maybe we needed to rethink our contribution to an event where we are attacked by others associated with the event. And we agreed with Paul that, having obtained sponsorship approval that very day, there was no point to putting IBM's logo on the ILUG site that day, lest anyone think it was because of your blog post. Sad, really, that we even had to think about it that way.

15 - @Ed - I didn't raise all the details of our discussions with Volker as I felt there was nothing to be gained from that, and it would of made this a lot worse. That was my call.
But, in fairness, I should of had an IBM logo up there from the start, even if they had not confirmed sponsorship. - my fault, and mine alone.

The post above was not about ILUG really, it is more an observation on what I think is the potential of a community to self destruct.

16 - @15 - Geez Paul, that doesn't sound like *self* destruction at all. That sounds like the actions of an outsider.

17 - Define outsider... I don't see any outsiders in the above comments.

18 - { Link }

19 - Paul, you beautiful man. Let me say this as to the contents of your heartfelt post: SO SAY WE ALL.

*raises a glass to the incomparable Mooney*

20 - @18 Props for bringing XKCD into this heated (but friendly) conversation

21 - @19 Seconded.

22 - Ok boys, I just want to give you an outsider's opinion - whether you want to hear it or not! :) I have been reading the bantering that has been going back and forth between many of the people in the lotus community and I feel like I am witnessing some of the nonsense that goes on at the school playground. "This one said that and that one said this about each other". I have met many of you or I have heard very good things about you from Sean (this is totally me and not Sean) but this crap has really got to stop. When did you all forget how to play in the sandbox together? I am sure each and every one of you contributes something that is very good to your community but good lord stop carrying on so much. I may not understand all the technical junk you all talk about (but then again you wouldn't understand my field either), but please can't you all just play nice!
Your mothers' would not be happy with you.
And Paul....yes there is going to be fun associated with ILUG this year..this is when I get away from the kids! (but hopefully no Meatloaf imitations from Sean)

23 - I guess my point at 16 is proved positive.

24 - @22 - well said!

@23 - *sigh*... No. Its not. An "outsider" just pointed out the fact that current conversations remind her of the schoolyard. Kids jostling for position.

25 - Meatloaf imitations - that reminds me...

bwahahahaha!